Shifter Engine Classification

[phil]

Another simple question I have is if there is growth on both sides, why not spend the $36/ class and have seperate podiums for ICC, DD2, & Moto? We run many classes on the track at the same time, why could it not be treated in a similar fashion? I think the weight differential could work between the new/ old ICC, but I think the Moto should be a seperate discussion. I am assuming the torque curve would be fairly different between Moto & ICC. I also think we need to remember there are still a lot of DD2's around, and not leave them out. If they all showed up at once we could double the field fairly easy ( and potentaily get to be a seperate race).


Phil

[BANZracing]

With all due respect, bringing DD2's into this conversation is going to send it off on the wrong tangent. We really need to stay focused on the true 6-speed shifters and develop a program to grow and support these machines within the club. Spending time at this point discussing equalizing a DD2 vs ICC is not going to be at all productive for any of us.

Nigel has some great suggestions and observations above, eapecially the fact that research shows the capital cost of these motors is becoming negligible between the two types. It really does eliminate another "reason" we shouldn't be looking at promoting the ICC's and moto's in the same class.

We should keep it simple fellas. Add some weight to the ICC's and lets go race. DD2's are a topic for another thread, in my opinion. We could spend all winter over analyzing this thing and be no further ahead in the spring. We aren't going to please everyone, nor should there be an attempt to do so.

[phil]

I wasn't suggesting trying to equalize shifter & DD2, just pointing out that they still exist, and are still sharing the same space and time.There is no way for them to be competitive with shifters, and we need to remember that and give them some recogniton as well.

[BANZracing]

Hey Phil, my comment on the DD2's was in reference to Iain's comment, not yours. I think you and I posted at the same minute. I hadn't seen yours when I was typing mine. I agree that DD2's are in the mix, but really should run on their own, against their own, in the shifter class. I fully support your suggestions depending on how many show up for a race.

Simply need consensus on how to grow and run the 6-speeders.

BT

[Nathan B]

Just to test the waters me and Joey have been discussing options to do a little equalization between the new ICC/Old ICC, and are going to try some options.

Plastic reeds to limit air flow, and copper head gasket to reduce compression. Both of these are a 15 minute job to swap in, so at any time if I want to travel and race I can jump up to full blast no problem. But hopefully they equalize the ICC engines. Based on qualifying this weekend I was consistently about 3 tenths up on Skylar with a K9B, so if we do some testing and find the kart a few tenths slower we can work with that.

As for unifying the direction for the future. I think we should keep it wide open for now, Joey and the club should be promoting Stock moto as the tech class and the one for travel racers. But if new guys come and want to have a high reving ICC they should be accommodated as well. With this strategy I think the class would see the most growth, and if we ever got to the point of consistent 20 kart grids we could then consider a clean split. Both classes would have the momentum to sustain themselves.


I am loving all the grid ideas, and the solution Nigel put forward is sweet.


As for Moto/ICC equalization I think the weights put forward by Bryan are completely reasonable. 400lb for ICC, 375 for Moto. If you are super light and don't want to deal with lead, pick up a moto. If you are Heavy go ICC, or talk to Joey, for a pretty reasonable dollar you can add 2-3 hp to a moto without affecting reliability.


No tech, and if a moto weighs in a 372 or something on race day I wouldn't want to see results adjusted. Lets just keep it gentleman's rules while we can.


Getting some real headway here, and if we all come to something we can propose a Gentlemans set of rules at the club meeting and have them posted for new guys.

[Nathan B]

Forgot to mention DD2... Keep the Faith guys... you guys will need to collaborate and let us shifter guys know what you are thinking. Dont want to see anyone excluded.

[Joey Guyon]

We will likely test the plastic reeds from a OEM K9A into the KZ10B next week as well as the copper head gasket to reduce compression one session after that. I'll bring my GPS.

I would love to weigh 372. Maybe it will leave a smaller bruise on Jake's shoulder next race

The class is growing. I think in a few years we may want to see the gentlemen racers in moto while the serious guys in ICC/KZ. I'd love to hear what Nils and Terry think. They kept this class going for the last 8 years!!!

You may still see guys like Jake choose to buy a moto and weigh 410, but still give them the liberty to travel abroad while learning their tuning and packages here locally.

Next race I'd like to see a class picture on the grid to show what we've achieved this year.

[Bainesy36]

With regards to weight. It appears that other clubs in the U.S. are ranging from 10-40lb difference for Stock Moto to ICC/KZ or Mod Moto, so 25lb here sounds like a good middle ground. Whether that is 375/400, 380/405 or 385/410 etc is up for debate, but I think it's a good starting point.

[Mark]

While I would agree that the lack of strict regulation of the class has helped in one sense, I think the lack of clear rules/weights may have also hindered in some respects. People need to know where they stand. If we can come up with some parameters that we can at least start the season with next year, then people can plan. We need to bear in mind that this is a work in progress and no matter what we end up trying, it will likely need some tweaking and only racing under those parameters is going to tell us if we are on the right track (pun intended).

I have heard people muse as to "where are all those shifter karts" that are out there, followed by a list of people/karts that have vanished. My take on this is that as shifter is the "pinnacle of performance" in karting, it attracts people with the disposable income to acquire the kart but not the free time to race on any kind of a regular basis. This person may have bought a quad last year and taken that out a few times and perhaps a skidoo the winter before and now discovers there's a kart track and wants to go as fast as possible in one of those. The big difference is that races are scheduled and a day in the woods on a quad or sled is not. Add-in the physical demands of a shifter, and it becomes clear as to why people appear and disappear quickly. I think the way to combat this to a degree is to not allow people to race shifter until they have done a season or more in something else. Not only does this help ensure that the person has the skills and experience to properly handle the machine, but also means they have a better idea of what they are getting into and are therefore more likely to stick with it.

Iain has the right idea though, we need to decide what we want the class to look like in a year or 2 and start slowly pushing it that way with some rules. By allowing this to happen slowly over several seasons, no one is going to get stuck with the "wrong" motor and be seriously uncompetitive (unless they drive like Iain!)

[Rob Kozakowski]

We have the same deal at EDKRA. You'll never balance all the possible engine combos...

Moto-x based... Stock Honda, Modified Motos of varying degrees (from PI's, pistons and rings that need to be changed every 15-30 minutes, mods to turn moto-x engines into "simulated" GP bike engines (CR to RS, YZ to TZ), to almost stock), Honda vs. TM vs. Yamaha vs. the others (most of which were never proven to be very good, although I remember a Husqvarna doing ok back in the ProMoto days), differences in years of manufacture, etc.

Euro based... New KZ vs. older ICC, "base" KZ vs. "factory special" KZ, old FC (rotary vs. reed) with big carbs and higher compression, "TAG" shifters - K9es, K10es, MX125, X30, Rok, etc...

Too many possible combinations, and too many of those combinations on track today, to say we're switching to a single-spec format, without killing or severely hurting the class just as it's gaining momentum.

The biggest difference in a shifter is still the driver... that said, the engine package will absolutely make a difference...

I think the best thing is to try to recognize that for the majority, it's club racing and encourage it to be as much of a "gentleman's" class as possible. At the same time, it's absolutely to be expected that some people are in it to win it, so as long as the rules are clear ahead of time, those people have to realize that if one person "ups the ante", the rest may feel the need to follow suit - but that doing so makes it more expensive for everyone.

I know I'm not a CKRC member, but I hate adding more classes. It would become a joke if you make a separate class for each of the alternatives available (Stock Honda, Mod Moto, KZ/ICC, FC, TAG Shifter). It would also be a nightmare to try to "fairly" group any of these into only a couple classes - does a Mod Moto get grouped with Stock Honda or into an "open" class? Does a TAG shifter get grouped with the new KZ's, or does it get grouped with a similarly "de-tuned" Stock Honda? It would also be a nightmare to balance performance with weight because there are simply too many combos out there, and you'd end up with 5-10 different weights.

Personally, I'd keep it REAL simple, and KEEP IT AS IT IS TODAY - keep the weight consistent across the board, max 125cc, and max 6-speed gearbox, and give the serious guys the option of spending the money to run a KZ10B (or the 10C when it's available or whatever Vortex or Parilla or Maxter or Modena, etc has to offer) if they feel the need to up the ante, while letting the others who are in it for fun choose their package, and do their best to beat the others on similar packages, even if it is a fight for 5th or 6th, instead of 1st.

If someone feels they have too big an advantage over the others, simple changes to try to level the playing field a bit (like running plastic reeds and copper head gasket in a KZ10B) should absolutely be encouraged, but I don't think it should be mandated.

After getting in Joey's Stock Honda for a few laps at Warburg (thanks Joey!), I'm close to pulling the trigger and joining in on the fun next year (my wife probably won't thank you for this) - as much as I love the Euro engines, at this point it'll probably be in a Stock Honda, even if I am an old, fat dude, who can't drive anymore and who could use every bit of engine advantage I can get. Of course, I still have an old FC TM KV95 that I might dust off for fun once in a while, just to hear the sound of a shifter wind like mad.