You are right Mark, the reality is that shifter is much more physical than many karters anticipate, and the reality of driving a shifter kart for 10 laps is more than some are physically up for.
Unfortunately, engine rules arent going to change that. The difference between the ICC and Moto in the hands of the same driver is maybe .5-1 second or so. Switching the class to moto won't change the physicality, braking is just as brutal, cornering forces are the same. If a 55 second lap time is the secret, then the class exists, and is perfectly regulated... Rotax.
Luckily this all gets resloved when guys just run what they have, so far this year we have seen grids with lap times from front to back seperated by 3-5 seconds a lap. So all we really need is for all those shifters out there to start showing up and racing, and there will be guys at your pace to cut laps with and have a great race.
For guys like me, my first shifter experience was a Pavesi, and the speed and physicality is what hooked me. I went stock moto because it was what everyone was doing, but from the first lap with that engine I was disspapointed with it, it never felt like a true racing engine and never gave me the shifter experience I was looking for. Now that I have switched to ICC, I won't be going back.
A little search accross EKN and other Karting forums and you will see there seems to be no middle ground on this, there is a clut following for both engine classes and its tough to make them work together. What we have right now with an open class is a shifter grid that is growing every race.... trying to equalize now would see a bunch of guys who have made the investment get screwed once again. ( how I felt after going moto and running behind a bunch of ICC for the first 4 races)
Maybe the best option is to eliminate points and and do a grid reversal or pea pick for shifters?
After qualifying, anyone withing two seconds of pole position has the position reversed/randomly assigned for the race?
This mixes everything up, encourages racing and passing, and by limiting it to 2 seconds, hopefully the speed differential is not so much that it becomes hazardous.
Shifter Engine Classification
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The forums are a place for open discussion of karting topics. Please respect the opinions of others. No name calling, abuse, bashing etc. of any sort will be tolerated and offending posts will be removed and offenders sanctioned at the discretion of the webmaster or the executive. All posted materials, text, etc. become the property of the CKRC and may be displayed or removed at the discretion of the CKRC.
The forums are a place for open discussion of karting topics. Please respect the opinions of others. No name calling, abuse, bashing etc. of any sort will be tolerated and offending posts will be removed and offenders sanctioned at the discretion of the webmaster or the executive. All posted materials, text, etc. become the property of the CKRC and may be displayed or removed at the discretion of the CKRC.
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BANZracing
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:27 pm
- First Name: Brian
- Last Name: Taylor
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
Nathan,
I think you're on to something in your latest post here. Fully supportive of your suggestions.
Chasing points gets everyone heated to win the race, and becomes the sole focus.....Are club points really the purpose of why we get out in our shifters? I personally could care less about points....frankly don't even know where to look for the them on the website.
There are lots of new guys out this year (me included), and it was because the class was open, that I saw the opportunity to get in and play with some very intense equipment, and for no other material reason. You guys have said it already, that the class is the largest grid in years, and I firmly believe that if we start to lock it down with a bunch of rules, we are going to stifle the growth immediately.
Guys, we don't even know what we have here yet,....the class hasn't had nearly enough time to peculate. It might be wise to potentially take a page out of the DD2 group up at Warburg. This group has created a strong class, by running slightly unconventional, and under-regulated, on their own collective terms. Things like random draw for start position, invert the grid after each heat, sort starting position by tire compound, etc..all sorts of interesting things to keep the class fun to race in, and for the fans to watch.
Simply put, for highly competitive, highly regulated, spec racing, go race Rotax. My belief is that it will be the demise of our growing shifter grid if we even think we can go the same route.
Brian #177
I think you're on to something in your latest post here. Fully supportive of your suggestions.
Chasing points gets everyone heated to win the race, and becomes the sole focus.....Are club points really the purpose of why we get out in our shifters? I personally could care less about points....frankly don't even know where to look for the them on the website.
There are lots of new guys out this year (me included), and it was because the class was open, that I saw the opportunity to get in and play with some very intense equipment, and for no other material reason. You guys have said it already, that the class is the largest grid in years, and I firmly believe that if we start to lock it down with a bunch of rules, we are going to stifle the growth immediately.
Guys, we don't even know what we have here yet,....the class hasn't had nearly enough time to peculate. It might be wise to potentially take a page out of the DD2 group up at Warburg. This group has created a strong class, by running slightly unconventional, and under-regulated, on their own collective terms. Things like random draw for start position, invert the grid after each heat, sort starting position by tire compound, etc..all sorts of interesting things to keep the class fun to race in, and for the fans to watch.
Simply put, for highly competitive, highly regulated, spec racing, go race Rotax. My belief is that it will be the demise of our growing shifter grid if we even think we can go the same route.
Brian #177
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JakeThompson
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:28 pm
- First Name: Jake
- Last Name: Thompson
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
I'm going to buy the oldest moto engine I can find so I can blame losing on something other than the fact that I have become a hack, and I can continue to pretend I'm the legend that I am in my own mind
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Nathan B
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 8:01 pm
- First Name: Nathan
- Last Name: Bartley
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
Brian
I think you are definitely onto the spirit of what we were hoping for with the shifter class the last few years. Big grids and fun racing.
"random draw for start position, invert the grid after each heat, sort starting position by tire compound, etc..all sorts of interesting things to keep the class fun to race in, and for the fans to watch."
I would focus our discussion on points like these. If anyone has some ideas here we could make for some pretty fun racing where the win is less motivating, and everyone gets a shot at some good racing.
I think you are definitely onto the spirit of what we were hoping for with the shifter class the last few years. Big grids and fun racing.
"random draw for start position, invert the grid after each heat, sort starting position by tire compound, etc..all sorts of interesting things to keep the class fun to race in, and for the fans to watch."
I would focus our discussion on points like these. If anyone has some ideas here we could make for some pretty fun racing where the win is less motivating, and everyone gets a shot at some good racing.
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Team 75
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:29 pm
- First Name: Wendell
- Last Name: Dunning
- City/Town: Edmonton
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
sorry to tell you this but we are in it to win
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Mark
- Posts: 652
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:57 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Hillier
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
Not all of us. Everyone likes to win, but personally I recognize that in order to win, I need to invest FAR more time (and money) that I am willing to invest. So I race because I enjoy it and the sociability of beers and slagging after the race day.
I have had better, more enjoyable races fighting for 5th than being in the lead. It's the battle that counts and as long as there are people to battle with, I'm good.
So it all comes down to perspective. If you race karts (in general, not just shifter) because you want to do the Schumi dance on the top step of the podium, then good luck to you. Maybe you'll make it but it's not going to be quick, easy or cheap ! If, on the other hand, you want to come have a load of fun with good people and can live with your own failings on the track, then you are going to be a lot happier at the end of the day (and more likely to be invited to my pit for beers).
This sport is what you make it; you just need to choose what you want from it.
Flipping grids sounds like fun to me but I expect that for someone set on winning a championship, that's going to annoy them !
I have had better, more enjoyable races fighting for 5th than being in the lead. It's the battle that counts and as long as there are people to battle with, I'm good.
So it all comes down to perspective. If you race karts (in general, not just shifter) because you want to do the Schumi dance on the top step of the podium, then good luck to you. Maybe you'll make it but it's not going to be quick, easy or cheap ! If, on the other hand, you want to come have a load of fun with good people and can live with your own failings on the track, then you are going to be a lot happier at the end of the day (and more likely to be invited to my pit for beers).
This sport is what you make it; you just need to choose what you want from it.
Flipping grids sounds like fun to me but I expect that for someone set on winning a championship, that's going to annoy them !
Mark Hillier #44 VLR Senior, Shifter
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BANZracing
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:27 pm
- First Name: Brian
- Last Name: Taylor
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
I echo Mark's comments completely.
I had significantly more fun on Saturday racing and finishing 5th(?) and having a great on-track battle with Joey's moto (versus my shiny new IAME), then I did on Sunday finishing on the podium due to attrition at the front and a smaller grid to run against.
Joey, you're fast in that praga! I'll get ya next time, partner!
Brian
I had significantly more fun on Saturday racing and finishing 5th(?) and having a great on-track battle with Joey's moto (versus my shiny new IAME), then I did on Sunday finishing on the podium due to attrition at the front and a smaller grid to run against.
Joey, you're fast in that praga! I'll get ya next time, partner!
Brian
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BANZracing
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:27 pm
- First Name: Brian
- Last Name: Taylor
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
...and to answer Nathan's question at the start of this thread, I'd support a 400lb min for ICC. I'm average sized guy at 183lb with race gear on, and in the IAME, I tip the scales at 410lb in the scale shack. A 375lb min for stock moto sounds fair. With a 25lb+ delta on weight, it's got to be close to equalizing the power spread.
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Iain McLeod
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:54 pm
- First Name: Iain
- Last Name: McLeod
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
Hey All,
I thought I would chime in here.
Firstly (and realizing I haven’t been out there this year) it’s great to see the resurgence of this great class! There is no racing like shifter racing, and judging by the crowds that tend to watch the shifters opposed to all other classes I think the membership would agree. This class has come back to the CKRC, so we need to be careful with how we treat it; otherwise it will dwindle to nothing again.
Part of the reason that it is so much fun right now, and for the last couple years is there hasn’t been the Rotax level of competition, it’s been gentlemen racing. No one has been tech’d, we have had very few on track incidents, and it’s been a run what you brung sort of class. I think it’s fair to realize that with increased numbers there will be an increased level of competitiveness especially as we start to have Junior drivers migrate from Rotax to Shifters when they go Senior. This is where people will really start digging into their pocketbooks so they can win at a club level, and that’s a little goofy to me, so something needs to be done to level the playing field.
The first thing we need to do is develop a long term plan (5 yr) for the class that the racers and kart shops are on board with to transition this class to a single engine. This will level the playing field long term, set clear plans so people will know what to buy, and give kart shops greater visibility into demand which will give all of us better prices.
In the interim we need to level the playing field and I see a few ways: weight, tires, restrictors, carbs, exhaust, etc. All of these things level the playing field to a degree. I think it needs to be realistic though. My moto is pretty heavy, plus I’m a fat ass, so I’m not expecting that the weight get leveled to where I am, but I feel that a 175-180 lb person should be the baseline for all engines. From there we need to come up with fair rules in a class meeting that all classes of engine can compete at from DD2 to ICC. Sorry to say here Nathan, but adding 10 lbs will not be enough to level the ICC to the DD2 unless we have an anorexic driving the DD2, same goes with the moto. There needs to be a combination of rule changes to really make this work, so I would look to someone like Joey for his input.
The main reason that I purchased a stock moto was I saw how much the stock moto class was growing within Western Canada and USA. There is a well-defined rule book for this class that can drive consistency especially if your goal is to travel, and there are different weight classes. While ICC is a great engine and truly the pinnacle of shifter racing I see the price as too high, and I don’t see the same number of clubs running it. I also like the stock moto because parts are cheaper and more readily available, and there isn’t as significant of a maintenance schedule. To me this engine speaks better to the grass roots level of competition that our club should be fostering. I would be really interested to have the White family comment here with the amount of shifter racing they have been doing.
This is not to say we couldn’t grow into having 2 shifter classes in the future where we introduce ICC, but we need to walk before we run.
I am on board to do whatever we need to do to grow this class. We really need to start with some more class meetings and develop a plan. We have started the conversation here, we just need to take it to the next level.
Iain
I thought I would chime in here.
Firstly (and realizing I haven’t been out there this year) it’s great to see the resurgence of this great class! There is no racing like shifter racing, and judging by the crowds that tend to watch the shifters opposed to all other classes I think the membership would agree. This class has come back to the CKRC, so we need to be careful with how we treat it; otherwise it will dwindle to nothing again.
Part of the reason that it is so much fun right now, and for the last couple years is there hasn’t been the Rotax level of competition, it’s been gentlemen racing. No one has been tech’d, we have had very few on track incidents, and it’s been a run what you brung sort of class. I think it’s fair to realize that with increased numbers there will be an increased level of competitiveness especially as we start to have Junior drivers migrate from Rotax to Shifters when they go Senior. This is where people will really start digging into their pocketbooks so they can win at a club level, and that’s a little goofy to me, so something needs to be done to level the playing field.
The first thing we need to do is develop a long term plan (5 yr) for the class that the racers and kart shops are on board with to transition this class to a single engine. This will level the playing field long term, set clear plans so people will know what to buy, and give kart shops greater visibility into demand which will give all of us better prices.
In the interim we need to level the playing field and I see a few ways: weight, tires, restrictors, carbs, exhaust, etc. All of these things level the playing field to a degree. I think it needs to be realistic though. My moto is pretty heavy, plus I’m a fat ass, so I’m not expecting that the weight get leveled to where I am, but I feel that a 175-180 lb person should be the baseline for all engines. From there we need to come up with fair rules in a class meeting that all classes of engine can compete at from DD2 to ICC. Sorry to say here Nathan, but adding 10 lbs will not be enough to level the ICC to the DD2 unless we have an anorexic driving the DD2, same goes with the moto. There needs to be a combination of rule changes to really make this work, so I would look to someone like Joey for his input.
The main reason that I purchased a stock moto was I saw how much the stock moto class was growing within Western Canada and USA. There is a well-defined rule book for this class that can drive consistency especially if your goal is to travel, and there are different weight classes. While ICC is a great engine and truly the pinnacle of shifter racing I see the price as too high, and I don’t see the same number of clubs running it. I also like the stock moto because parts are cheaper and more readily available, and there isn’t as significant of a maintenance schedule. To me this engine speaks better to the grass roots level of competition that our club should be fostering. I would be really interested to have the White family comment here with the amount of shifter racing they have been doing.
This is not to say we couldn’t grow into having 2 shifter classes in the future where we introduce ICC, but we need to walk before we run.
I am on board to do whatever we need to do to grow this class. We really need to start with some more class meetings and develop a plan. We have started the conversation here, we just need to take it to the next level.
Iain
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Bainesy36
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 3:11 pm
- First Name: Nigel
- Last Name: Baines
- City/Town: Calgary
Re: Shifter Engine Classification
Well, this has been fun to follow 
As I am currently on the outside looking in, it's a little difficult for me to comment here without on track experience and I take what I know from watching the races and listening to the drivers within the class as the season has progressed. It has been awesome to see the interest and numbers grow throughout the year too
A few things I take from it so far are:
1) There appears to have been two trains of thought through 2014 as to what direction the shifter class was going to take for this season. A) Stock Moto, and B) ICC's and Mod Moto's without the latest generation of ICC's. If this was the case, it seems there may have been something lost in translation as some went down route A and some down route B. If the idea was to have them run together, it also seems that there was no discussion about a ballast system to even things out a little due to performance differences of the 2 options. Obviously I wasn't around at the time, so not 100% sure as to what was discussed.
2) The season started and the class was made up predominantly of the earlier generation ICC motors, with Nathan flying the lone Stock Moto pretty much. A few questions here for the Stock Moto owners - Who has one? Where were they? Why did we not see them on the grid? If there are a good number of Stock Moto's out there and the shifter class is run for "Fun", then the only reasons I can assume is that they weren't ready, financial constraints, other work/social commitments etc. Or, maybe for most (this would be me too if I'm honest), it's not "just for fun" and people would like to have a more even balance between the two options and didn't want to run in an uncompetitive machine??
3) It's nearly the end of the 2015 Season and the good thing here is that there is a lot of time to figure out exactly how the class will move forward for next year. If we keep an open discussion going, then everyone will be on the same page. We obviously have Stock Moto's and ICC/Mod Moto's out there, so it would be crazy to think that we can take one of these routes only and expect the class to continue to grow. Therefore we have to decide how the 2 options run together in the same race. I personally don't want to see a mixed class, where you're not necessarily competing directly with some of the karts around you, especially when there appears to be a relatively easy option to balance the 2 choices with weight. More info' needed on this, but Brian's suggestion above sounds feasible, although I wonder if the weight for Stock Motos at 375lb might be difficult for some current owners? The 25lb differential could be a good number to begin with though and I know we don't want people to have to throw a lot of lead on their ICC's, although if we came up with numbers that everyone liked, then a bit of lead is a small price to pay
4) As for Race day formats, I like the idea of mixing things up a bit. To be honest, I think it could work in all of the senior classes, not sure about juniors though. 1 thought I had was to run a Qualifying race instead of timed qualifying. Grid positions for this race would be drawn from a hat and the race length would be kept short, similar to a qualifying session now at about 6 laps, to keep the timetable on track. The second race would see people start from the position they finished in the qualifying race and then for the final, the top 5 or so from the second race are inverted (depending on number of entries). This would make things more exciting through the day for spectators and drivers alike.
I agree with Nathan that the cost to run Stock Moto and ICC's is negligible now with the research I have been doing and I actually believe you can grab a good ICC motor for less than a Stock Moto now due to the popularity of the Stock Moto concept in the US. In essence, what this could mean for anyone looking to join the Shifter revolution here at CKRC, is they could pick their poison based on personal preference and not "NEED" to have an ICC to compete. For example, me at 145lb soaking wet in an ICC package at a class weight of, let's say, 405lb, could mean a LOT of lead, therefore the Stock Moto package may be preferred and will still be competitive.
Sorry for the long post, but there are probably other things I would have liked to have mentioned, but just forgot (getting old sucks!)
Anyway, let's keep this positive discussion moving forward and I'm sure we can encourage more drivers to go Gear Jamming!!
Nige
As I am currently on the outside looking in, it's a little difficult for me to comment here without on track experience and I take what I know from watching the races and listening to the drivers within the class as the season has progressed. It has been awesome to see the interest and numbers grow throughout the year too
A few things I take from it so far are:
1) There appears to have been two trains of thought through 2014 as to what direction the shifter class was going to take for this season. A) Stock Moto, and B) ICC's and Mod Moto's without the latest generation of ICC's. If this was the case, it seems there may have been something lost in translation as some went down route A and some down route B. If the idea was to have them run together, it also seems that there was no discussion about a ballast system to even things out a little due to performance differences of the 2 options. Obviously I wasn't around at the time, so not 100% sure as to what was discussed.
2) The season started and the class was made up predominantly of the earlier generation ICC motors, with Nathan flying the lone Stock Moto pretty much. A few questions here for the Stock Moto owners - Who has one? Where were they? Why did we not see them on the grid? If there are a good number of Stock Moto's out there and the shifter class is run for "Fun", then the only reasons I can assume is that they weren't ready, financial constraints, other work/social commitments etc. Or, maybe for most (this would be me too if I'm honest), it's not "just for fun" and people would like to have a more even balance between the two options and didn't want to run in an uncompetitive machine??
3) It's nearly the end of the 2015 Season and the good thing here is that there is a lot of time to figure out exactly how the class will move forward for next year. If we keep an open discussion going, then everyone will be on the same page. We obviously have Stock Moto's and ICC/Mod Moto's out there, so it would be crazy to think that we can take one of these routes only and expect the class to continue to grow. Therefore we have to decide how the 2 options run together in the same race. I personally don't want to see a mixed class, where you're not necessarily competing directly with some of the karts around you, especially when there appears to be a relatively easy option to balance the 2 choices with weight. More info' needed on this, but Brian's suggestion above sounds feasible, although I wonder if the weight for Stock Motos at 375lb might be difficult for some current owners? The 25lb differential could be a good number to begin with though and I know we don't want people to have to throw a lot of lead on their ICC's, although if we came up with numbers that everyone liked, then a bit of lead is a small price to pay
4) As for Race day formats, I like the idea of mixing things up a bit. To be honest, I think it could work in all of the senior classes, not sure about juniors though. 1 thought I had was to run a Qualifying race instead of timed qualifying. Grid positions for this race would be drawn from a hat and the race length would be kept short, similar to a qualifying session now at about 6 laps, to keep the timetable on track. The second race would see people start from the position they finished in the qualifying race and then for the final, the top 5 or so from the second race are inverted (depending on number of entries). This would make things more exciting through the day for spectators and drivers alike.
I agree with Nathan that the cost to run Stock Moto and ICC's is negligible now with the research I have been doing and I actually believe you can grab a good ICC motor for less than a Stock Moto now due to the popularity of the Stock Moto concept in the US. In essence, what this could mean for anyone looking to join the Shifter revolution here at CKRC, is they could pick their poison based on personal preference and not "NEED" to have an ICC to compete. For example, me at 145lb soaking wet in an ICC package at a class weight of, let's say, 405lb, could mean a LOT of lead, therefore the Stock Moto package may be preferred and will still be competitive.
Sorry for the long post, but there are probably other things I would have liked to have mentioned, but just forgot (getting old sucks!)
Anyway, let's keep this positive discussion moving forward and I'm sure we can encourage more drivers to go Gear Jamming!!
Nige
Last edited by Bainesy36 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.