CKRC Forums

So two races in I was hoping we could get a discussion going on the shifter starts. I think the standing start is one of the most exciting aspect of shifter racing and would like to see this return for our class.

What was done in the last season of varsity, was for the DD2 karts to hang back on the formation lap so that the 6spd karts could form up on the grid in a standing start. Fred would then drop the flag for the start when the DD2's were 50 meters back or so.

Just wondering if anyone had some thoughts on this as I would like to see the standing starts return.

Nathan

I am happy that Nathan raised this issue. This past weekend is the first time I have ever done a rolling start and it removed a large part of the shifter experience....... it would be great if we could come up with a solution that allows for standing starts again.

Cheers,

Justin

I too would like to get back to the standing starts .... I think we could work something out with the DD2 drivers with them maybe hanging back 1/2 lap until I can form the standing Grid then come around the final corner as I am about to dispatch the others (always being mindful that a six speed may have stalled on the grid) I think we could also get marshal post 2 to be able to give direction also as to whether you should slow down or speed up !!
Perhaps a pre race meeting Saturday 27th...? (We may have more DD2 from Edmonton for the Alberta Challenge ... who knows).

I wouldn't expect many DD2's from Edmonton. While there is a large contingent of them up here, almost all of them run the Wednesday night races only (as they did in the Stratotech days). It is rare to see any of them at the weekend events, so I'd be surprised if they made the trip down south. I'll talk to the guys tonight and see what the interest is in that race.

I am not racing right now due to health issues (I have an early stage hernia) and financial reasons (I have to replace the roof and eves troughs on my house this summer). But as a DD2 competitor from the 2013 season I would like to add my 2 cents into the mix here. Ideally there would be tons of DD2s in the CKRC where the DD2s could have their own class. But unfortunately there isn't enough of us in Southern Alberta and since the DD2s have too much of a performance advantage over the Rotax Max Karts, the DD2s must compete (most of the time at a performance deficit) against the Shifters.

In 2013 the hybrid Shifter stand starts with DD2 rolling starts was the norm and a few times the starts went off quite well where I felt it was a competitive start. But there were other times where the starts were ridiculously unfair (sometimes this was the fault of the rolling starters taking too long to get into position). Also I understand the dangers involved here if a standing start Shifter was to stall and a rolling start Kart was to ram into their rear. One only needs to remember the 1982 Canadian F1 Grand Prix race when Italian Riccardo Paletti was killed at the start of the race when his car slammed into the rear end of Didier Pironi's Ferrari which had stalled on the grid at the start of the race. Now this is kind of the extreme as it was Paletti being trapped in his car and breathing flames into his lungs which resulted in his death. But still the thought of rear ending a stalled Shifter Kart at speed is undesirable and could result in injuries or worse. But if Shifter racers are going to demand standing starts and if DD2s (and other roller start Shifters ... such as Markus) must do these hybrid starts then so be it. But I would like to make a proposal that might make the races a little more fair to the rolling starters and that is: If a Shifter Kart qualifies behind a rolling starter, or the Shifter Kart finished behind a rolling starter in a pre-final race, then the Shifter racer forfeits their right to be a standing starter and must start the race with all the other rolling starters in the proper order. This means if a rolling starter is good enough to take the pole, that means the entire field should do a rolling start. It did not happen that often, but I can not tell you how unfair it was in the 2013 season to post a better result in qualifying or in the pre-final race only to be told ... too bad ... go to the back of the grid.

With all that said. I am not racing right now, so unless other rolling starters feel this same way, I guess my opinion is moot. LOL

Steve, I do agree with you on those points. As the guy asking for a standing start I am still a little wary of DD2's coming up behind at speed should a stall occur. I also agree with shifters getting a bump to the front even if they qualified behind. Potential solutions are


1) On the standing start - maybe the rolling karts should all be in a single file line set to go up the middle of the grid,in between the standing shifters. If the rolling starters are not allowed to break formation until the start/finish line, this would mean that in the event of stalled shifters the rollers would all be single file in between them. The risk here is that one shifter stalls, another goes into the middle to get around and now is in the way of the incoming dd2 line. Could we tell all shifter starters that in the event of a stall, going to the outside is the only option?

2) I think that if a shifter qualified behind a DD2, that shifter now gives up the right to a standing start and now forms in with the rollers.

This is a bit of devil's advocate solution, but why not let the DD2's do their rolling start ahead and the six speeders hang back a little, come to a halt on a standing start formation and then do a standing start? There is about 45 secs to handle this.

John K

John Kwong wrote:This is a bit of devil's advocate solution, but why not let the DD2's do their rolling start ahead and the six speeders hang back a little, come to a halt on a standing start formation and then do a standing start? There is about 45 secs to handle this.

This no doubt is safer. You could probably have the rolling starters about 10-20 or so meters ahead of the standing starters on the warm up lap. Then once the field hits the start finish straight, the rolling starters then get the green flag while the standing starters come to a complete stop followed by a relatively quick green flag. Then fast Shifters could try and hunt down the rolling starters while the rolling starters attempt to not get caught in a predator/prey sort of race. haha

The only issue here is who would win the race? But shouldn't there be split classes anyway? I mean the adult 4 strokes have the heavy and light split classes racing together don't they? Why do DD2s compete as equals to the more often than not more powerful shifters? I am not sure where someone like Markus fits in here though as he has a powerful shifter but unless I am mistaken he can't do standing starts?

All the karts racing together in shifter could do a standing start. The DD2 and Markus's Wankel probably do not have the holeshot capability of a six speed shifter but it could be done without harm to any of the machines. There is just a disadvantage. If a six speed shifter stalls then that is a possibility too.

I like the idea of there being more wheel to wheel action. I really enjoyed completing a real shifter pass on Skyler last weekend so potentially hunting down a DD2 would be interesting. Until we get significant numbers of either type of karts we can try some creative but safe and fun alternatives.

John K

I don't mind the Idea of the rollers doing a start first, with the standing start done once they are past the line. It would be fun to have the leaders in the shifters have to work their way through the DD2's.

Only hazard I see there is a when a pack of shifters come up on a couple racing DD2's. Without a blue flag, the DD2's might be driving pretty defensively, and the shifters would be pretty aggressive in their passes to not lose sight of the guy they are racing. But while the grid sizes are small I think we should all be able to agree to be pretty respectful out there.

I am open to all the ideas on the table so far.