2017 Shifter class

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John Kwong
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2017 Shifter class

Post by John Kwong »

Fellow Shifter Drivers and interested Parties,

I am opening this up for discussion so that the shifter class will at least maintain its recent popularity and hopefully have continued growth in the future.

These past 2 seasons we have been fortunate to build up the shifter class participation to respectable numbers. Keeping this momentum going with the myriad of motor types and vintages is always going to be a balancing act so that the class does not stagnate into having the latest and greatest equipment to be competitive at the front. Currently, we have Stock Motos, ICC motors of varying vintages and current KZ motors. Looking at the CKRC MyLaps Speedhive race data, the competitiveness of all these power plants is fairly close but could probably use some equalizing to continue to have good racing with participants having a perceived chance at victory.

I think we need to adjust the weights so that Motos and older homologation ICC and Formula C motor packages are more competitive with the current homologation KZ motors. On our current path, the KZ motors are very pricey and I think the current popularity of the class will be shortlived without some kind of compromise to entice newcomers to the class who may want to race shifter but at a reduced buy in.

I think a weight reduction for Moto and older spec ICC motors and Formula C motor packages is needed and here is a potential breakdown to equalize the various motor packages.

Stock Motos: Was 385 -> 375
Older ICC Motors: Was 410 -> 400
Newer KZ motors: 410

Typically, 10 pounds is worth 1 to 3 tenths depending on the driver.

DD2 is not mentioned here as they are looking at maintaining their own points series.

John K
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Mark
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Mark »

I haven't managed to stitch together any reasonable shifter laps yet but am hoping to get it together for 2017. That being said, I can't add any useful input to weights but agree in principle with what John suggests for the purposes of seeing as big a (competitive) grid as possible.

Shifter has grown a lot and I am optimistic that 2017 will see a new level of participation in this class. There is still quite a bit of gear sitting idle in garages out there and if we can get even a small percentage out on track, I think this will be a watershed year for shifter.

Bring it on, gear jammers !
Mark Hillier #44 VLR Senior, Shifter

Nathan B
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Nathan B »

Gents,

I am with you on this one. Only thing I would say is that I didn't spend the money on a TM just so I could add lead to my Kart.

So I would adjust the weights to

Stock Motos: Was 385 -> 375
Older ICC Motors: Was 410 -> 390
Newer KZ motors: 400

If you want to save money on the motor, then take it easy on the Christmas ham!

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John Kwong
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by John Kwong »

From what was posted earlier in the forums:

2) Guidelines
-Engine Type Open including DD2, ICC, Stock Moto/Mod Moto ect... Recommended purchase is Stock Moto or ICC.

-Class Recommendation
- Stock Moto with Min weight 385lb
- ICC with Min weight of 410lb
So your suggestion is to lower the weight 10 lbs from what was originally posted as the gentlemen rules/guidelines.
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Nathan B
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Nathan B »

Yah, mostly because me and Brian Taylor, the two guys running a modern TM regularily, both weigh in between 400-405. And I don't think either of us are interested in slapping lead on.

Team 75
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Team 75 »

Skylar weighs in at 405 to 410 with no weight
We do not plan on running shifter in Calgary.

Mark
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Mark »

Here comes the can of worms....

Gents, we can't kid ourselves on this topic. There are more powerful and less powerful engine options out there with differences in cost and driveability. I am not in a position to discuss driveability but the more powerful motors cost more and it seems counter intuitive to spend money and then hamstring the setup by slapping on weight until it's as slow as a moto.

That being said, if we do NOT do that, then it simply becomes a money game and those who are willing to spend will be at the front and the rest will scrap for leftovers. We have seen this before and we know what it did to the class.

My PERSONAL opinion is that we should have declared the class to be moto only before everyone went out and bought TM's. it would have been more level a playing field at a lower cost. Of course, playing with weights is another way to drive this but that is akin to closing the gate after the horse has already bolted.

Rotax works because the motor is the 'same'; Briggs works for the same reason. Then there is what is effectively an open gearbox class which we know will not, in the long run, work.

The one advantage to the status quo is that is allows a lower cost of entry (moto) so people can get their feet wet before realizing that they really need to sell their gear and get a TM. Some will do that and some will quit. How many karts are left on the grid ?
Mark Hillier #44 VLR Senior, Shifter

Nathan B
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Nathan B »

Mark,

I think the opposite has happened at our club. The class has grown because it was wide open, this has allowed everyone to run whatever they had kicking around, or to build whatever version of a shifter they want to drive. These gentlemans guidelines have been key, and continuing to promote the class as a fun class and not a hyper competitive one focused on results has led to its growth.


Don't kid yourself. If the class was spec'd as stock moto, there would be guys who have the money to blueprint motors ect... and you would still see the same guys running at the front, with Evan white 2 laps ahead of them!

The class is growing, the racing was great last year. And the cans of worms were already opened and hashed out last year when we came up with the gentlemans guides. Let's stick with them and if majority wants to adjust the weights slightly, let's do it.

Nathan

Joey Guyon
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Joey Guyon »

Good comments Nathan. I had already typed this when you posted so here goes:

This is a great discussion. The current formula is pretty good, I'm sure there is a formula that will work best for our club, but for certain no formula will be perfect!

We can discuss ideal weights, though do we want to set the weights to tighten up the front of the pack, or to bring the rear closer to the front?

One thing is for certain: Drivers and equipment have come a long way in just 12 months. If we look at 2 examples of my races (insert joke "Joey is older and coasts a lot lol")

In the final in 2015 Sept 19 there are a few constants we can look at : https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/3712061
Clockwise!!!
1st place Jake Thompson 2010 PCR / 2006 TM K9B fast lap 53.859
2nd place Nathan Bartley 2010 PCR / 2015 TM KZ10B fast lap 53.479 - (actually won by 1.6 seconds)
4th place Joey Guyon 2014 Praga / 2001 Honda CR125 slight mod fast lap 53.953 - 3.487 behind winner

In the final in 2016 Sept 10 CCW let's see: https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Sessions/4143015
Counterclockwise!!!
1st place Jake Thompson 2014 Tony / 2016 TM KZES fast lap 53.354
2nd place Nathan Bartley 2010 PCR / 2015 TM KZ10B fast lap 53.398 - 3.7 sec behind winner
3rd place Joey Guyon 2015 PCR / 2015 IAME fast lap 53.429 - 4.9 sec behind winner (2.2 sec behind 2nd place)

What hypothesis can we make based on the above?
*Assuming no gain in chassis, Jake gained 0.5 seconds with a 10 year newer engine from ICC to KZ at same weight
*Nathan Bartley is a constant, with same equipment both races (though different track direction)
*My equipment was vastly different. I gained 0.5 seconds going from Moto at 385lbs to KZ at 385lbs (same weight)
*Over the course of 12 laps I was 1.2 seconds closer to Nathan. Keep in mind that WE HAD NEARLY THE IDENTICAL BEST LAP TIME (0.03 slower). Also I was ~20lbs lighter on arguably the same level of power to achieve that.

So in summary the equipment (engine) will play a part in best lap time. The package (chassis/driver) will determine the finishing position of the driver.

Let's look at driver weights for more data (submit yours and I will update the list):
Jake Thompson: Tony/TM KZ 410lbs no lead
Nathan Bartley: PCR/TM KZ 405 no lead
Joey Guyon: Moto 385 (12lbs lead), KZ 385 (no lead)
John Kwong: GP/ICC 405? no lead
Brian Taylor: PCR/KZ 405 no lead
Nigel Baines: Arrow/ICC 410 - 40lb lead
Kevin Canning: Intrepid/Moto 430 no lead
Rob Kozakowski: Praga/Moto 440 no lead
Brent H: Birel/DD2 385 lotsa lead
Mitch Devison: PCR/DD2 ?
Uncle Jimmy: Uncle Jimmy mobile / Moto ?
Peter Sammon: Tony / Moto ?
Jaro Wardwell: Italkart / ICC 410 no lead
Evan White: Kosmic / Moto 385 lotsa lead
Alan Haggerty: Praga / KZ 410 no lead
Garrett Smith: CRG / KZ 415 no lead
Rob Mcfayden: PCR / Moto 440 no lead
Brennan Peters: PCR / Moto 385 lotsa lead
Georges Abboud: Intrepid / KZ 410 some lead
Rob White: CRG dd2 385 no lead
Gerhard Roetz: Intrepid / KZ 425 no lead
Austin King: PCR / Moto 440 no lead

Hopefuls:
Ray Wilch: KGB / Vortex 430 no lead
Luke Pascoe: Mike Wilson / ICC 440
Mike Jepson: PCR / TM Moto 430 no lead
Iain Mcleod: PCR / Moto 440 no lead needed here
Jason Upton: PCR / Moto 410 no lead needed here
Mark Hillier: Birel / Moto 385 lotsa lead
Justin Woolsey: PCR / KZ 405, no lead
Skylar Dunning: Energy / TM 410, no lead. Not racing anyway, but maybe will consider it. But likely not. Thinking about it. Actually wants to race.
Iain Mcvean: CRG / Pavesi 410 no lead

So if we are looking to adjust weights, and help everybody, we should increase KZ to help the guys that can't make the current moto weight. If we lower the Moto or ICC weight, it helps me, Evan, Nigel, Mark H and Brennan.

That change, "penalizes" the experience (from an enjoyment perspective) of the front running KZ guys who just want to drive the bag off of pure bread racing beasts. Will a higher weight drive these guys away?

If we raise the weight of 2-4 front runners, will it really make a difference to the guy in 15th?

If a moto and KZ or ICC have the same lap time, can the moto pass the ICC anyway?

One thing we can agree on, shifter is so much fun!

Send your opinions and corrections on kart weights when available.

JG
Last edited by Joey Guyon on Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Evan White
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Re: 2017 Shifter class

Post by Evan White »

Our opinion is less Weight and more pack racing, because pack racing is fun and shifter is super fun!

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