proposed 2018 weight rules

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Gerhard8020
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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by Gerhard8020 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:54 am

I’m 435+ on the scales. Short of a carbon fibre hip replacement, not much I can do to get lighter. Having a higher weight limit is not going to make a difference to my race but if it is too low it might discourage the heavier guys from participating.

Erin
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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by Erin » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:05 pm

The scale person REALLY needs some help on figuring out what engine is what. I had it sort of figured out last year with some help! Let me know what is decided!! THanks!

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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by JakeThompson » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:05 am

Here is another suggestion, seeing that this is the open class anyway, that the weights be more of a gentleman's agreement.

I looked at the times from the last race of the season and the spread of times was 6 seconds. The weight differences we are talking about (380-405lbs) is 3 tenths maximum.

I think that the winner only (or fast qualifier) should be forced to be on the agreed upon weight. This makes it easier for the scales, and forces only the guys running up front where 3-4 tenths makes a difference to be on weight. Everyone else just needs to make the 380 lbs minimum. We could maybe go as far as the podium needs to be on correct weight.

Shifter has big barriers to entry, and the driving is so difficult so I think if someones just trying to get up to speed we don't need to confuse them with complicated weight rules. Once people are up to speed (within 1.5 sec or so of the ultimate pace) we would strongly encourage you to comply with the agreed upon gentleman's rules of 405 for KZ, 395 for Hobby KZ, and 380 for moto.

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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by Nathan B » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:05 am

I would tend to agree with Jake here. Did we actually have a problem in the last 3 years where the racing was affected by the weights?

Having the gentleman's rules is nice as a guideline and I think the majority of us are following them pretty closely. I think the key to success in our shifter class is to maintain that fun spirit of it, no one is really taking it extremely seriously at the moment and that gives people more latitude to just run whatever is kicking around and get on the grid. There is big spread in lap times between both ends of the grid and this means there is some one to race with whatever level you are at. I don't think weight adjustments are going to close that lap time gap, its just too big.

At the front end of the grid when you have guys like Jake, Evan, myself and John its going to be a pretty quick group, so to think you can build a budget machine and come dice at the front in the first season is probably not realistic. I think this group should be focused on managing expectations and keeping the racing light hearted. That way we can get more new people to take the leap into this class, and there will be room to slowly move up the grid into some pretty competitive racing at the front. Don't want to see this go the way of our senior rotax where there is no middle ground, and no one to race if you aren't at the sharp end of the grid.

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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by John Kwong » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:24 pm

So, going by this theory of more inclusiveness, if you think you have a chance at being on the podium and end up on the podium you have to make these weights that we have agreed upon as gentlemen. If you are a new shifter driver or a mid-pack guy and also a small size driver you don't have to worry about being at the prescribed weight until you are a threat to podium.

This is all good in theory until there is a crash or attrition with the front runners and light weight guy finishes in a podium spot but is disqualified because he is underweight.

Also, this screws with the mid-pack field because now the heavier mid-pack guy has to contend with unfairly light weight guy.

Rules are meant to make it fair for everyone so that the playing field is laid out at the beginning of the season and is not a moving target. I would like to see the weight rules discussed here to be formalized in the club supplementary regs so that anyone coming to the class new or old knows what they are buying into. Willy nilly rules do not help any class to grow or maintain numbers.

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RoyW
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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by RoyW » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:45 pm

Evan & I support the idea of lower weight for Stock Moto than proposed initially in this forum, because regardless of any and all tests we did with multiple configurations, it was simply not possible to win at 380 lbs weight versus any modern TM without making modification on the motor. So given that it can become quite costly to do some of these modification and we want to encourage every shifter owner to show up and race we support moving the stock moto weight down 10 pounds (So that would mean 370 lbs). The stock moto simply does not have the straight line speed to race against a TM or even a Roc TM. Many new driver's would be able to compete (including Mark Hillier) and have a good chance at being competitive. Same would go for any new racers coming into the sport cheaply from rotax or other clubs. We (Evan & I) want to encourage more racers and we need cheep to get more racers. Honda's are cheeper to run than a Rotax Senior (just our experience).

We support the published weights (with a lower moto weight) being the standard but want to keep the friendly competition as the most important feature. we prefer nobody get's DQ's for being a little bit off. We prefer that you simply loose a position not a DQ. I expect that that way the most honest guy win's at the front.

We also think that if you are overweight do to personal size factors (zero lead on cart), We should permit a shadow podium in Shifter for a Master's class (4-5% over required weight)...(perhaps a position or two upgrade in the points awarded) Big guy's still can have fun..... and if they show up to every race could actually have a chance to get on the club podium at the end of the year. We don't know exactly how to do this but we just feel we don't want to exclude people because there is no "Masters Podium", Maybe it's best to just add a Masters level of weights.
Roy White

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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by Nathan B » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:59 pm

Well I am in agreement if we want to make the proposed weights official rules. I just have an issue with increasing those weights.

I am also in agreement with lowering the Stock moto weight to somewhere in the 370 range.


I like Roy's suggestion though that if someone comes in within a pound or two of the weights we have a little bit of forgiveness.

Also in favor of a masters weight class run on the same grid if guys want to investigate that.

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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by Jackmazury » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:25 pm

I’m also in favour of what Roy said and personally think that levelling the field more so with the lower Stock Moto weight would attract more attention from the racers on a bit of a strenuous budget. Either way we are all here to have fun and that should be the end goal. And if lowering the moto weight and having a bit of Leeway on the scales is the way to achieve that then we should do it
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Mark
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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by Mark » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:16 pm

First, it needs to be said that the real way to fix the problem is to mandate a motor for shifter. Of course, that means that there are going to be unhappy people who have a different motor.

Given that I don’t see that happening, there are some good ideas here and ultimately, we can experiment with different ideas to see what might work and keep the class going. We should be careful though as uncertainty over rules is a barrier to someone considering the class.
Mark Hillier #44

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Fred
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Re: proposed 2018 weight rules

Post by Fred » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:43 am

Pick some weights

If we as officials can not enforce them as a standard we don't really need to enforce any on track regulations either ... just get at each other !!

If you come up with some weights let us have a Gentleman's agreement that for every 1/2 lb you weigh in light we add 3 seconds to your race time that way you can chose to run light or not !

Our Club Regulations are there for a reason and that is to equal the playing field ... lead is cheap or Senior Rotax is even cheaper if you find it hard to make the weight ...... this is club racing and none of you are young enough to make F1 (Sorry Evan even you are too old now :-()

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