Potential Track Modification

[Mark]

I don't know about shifter (hope to find out this year) but I don't touch those curbs in 4 stroke as they unsettle the kart too much. With more power it's less of an issue but for us, curbs=slower lap.

[Team 75]

I cant wait for Nathan to try out the Edmonton curbs

[JakeThompson]

Watch the line that myself, Nathan and Skylar run through this segment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXuIO1FTWXA (1:00 min mark is the first time through). We are all looking for any extra tenth possible to win. I can assure you that the fast line is the same in Rotax. I can also assure you that this is both hard on equipment and not fun to do for 15 laps (at least for my ribs it isnt!). It also is not technical or challenging (imo), anybody can do this, its just a matter of deciding that launching yourself over these curbs every lap is worth 1 tenth.

Also there is no point comparing this to curbs at other tracks. I actually think it is a good thing to have high curbs that for the most part we don't drive on. The problem here is that this section is so tight there is no choice but to drive over them regardless of how big we build them (I also dont think shaving them down will help, as we will just cut the corner more and drive in the grass, which isn't likely to be a much smoother ride).

Anyway, I think the track is fabulous, and am eternally grateful to everyone who made it possible, and I think the layout proved excellent last year. However its going to exist for 20+ years so I think we should always be open to discussion on how we can improve it. If people like this sequence as is, or don't think it's worth the money, those are both good points, however I think we can do without comments like "just drive different" or "other tracks have similar" which really don't add much. I'm sure no one will appreciate me showing up and arguing against better washrooms by telling you to hold it until the end of the day, or reminding you how gross the washrooms are in Quesnel

[Nathan B]

I cant wait for Nathan to try out the Edmonton curbs

Ha, that track did quite a number on my ribs back in my rotax days. Looking forward to ripping shifters up there this year.

[John Kwong]

I have watched the video and didn't see too much dirt riding beyond the curbs. For the most part drivers were on the curbs with some dust being thrown up. Nathan may have been driving beyond the curb more but watching Skyler go through there, on but not beyond the curbs was faster. Now if the corner cheating was like the North chicane of Varsity Speed Park going CCW with the middle of the kart going over the curb then I would have more concern.
What I have noticed on most modern tracks in Europe is that they are building curbs with a drop-off on the backside to discourage driving beyond the curbing. With this design excessive abuse of the curbs is higher risk to losing time and stability on exit. This also keeps drivers in line who are always looking for the shortest possible way through a corner.

round curbing.jpg (43.74 KiB) Viewed 7311 times

I do not see any reason to change this corner as has been suggested at this time. We must remember that this track has to remain interesting and challenging for all of the classes racing. When we designed the track, this section was discussed greatly and the previously proposed layout change in this discussion was one we looked at but later went with the layout we built.
Our main concern with the chicane as it has been built was that we would be building a chicane that would be abused like many other tracks. The tracks with problem chicanes typically tied two fast sections together with a chicane as a mechanism to slow the drivers. The intent to slow the area down was there but the execution proved different and NOLA motorsport park is a prime example of bad execution.

NOLA curb jump5.jpg (183.83 KiB) Viewed 7311 times

As you can see, their solution was to concrete everything, which was another mistake as it made it easier to cheat. These curbs were later removed completely and a straight flat section was put in, negating any challenge whatsoever.

The difference with our chicane section is that it is the slowest area of the track which actually takes more skill to drive effectively than some of our faster sections. Like all tracks, you cannot please everyone but having a track that is interesting and challenging for all of the classes racing is more important.

If this section of the track becomes a problem with too much driving beyond or behind the curbing, then a more modern curbing solution may have to be implemented by digging out behind the curbs to make a drop-off to discourage this kind of activity.

empty-race-track-1295305.jpg (31.68 KiB) Viewed 7311 times

In the meantime, we are only just starting the second year of racing at the track. With the asphalt still maturing and frost heaves or dips still in our future, I believe we need to have more time on the track before major changes are undertaken.

John K

[JakeThompson]

Agree with most of what John posted (even if we ultimately feel different about this corner)
- "concreting" over curbs, or making them flatter, risks making it worse not better, as this will just cause us to cut further (great photo from NOLA though)
- The corner is not an issue at slow speed. Although I personally don't like the sequence running CCW (don't like corners below the power band, which it is in rotax) there is nothing actually wrong with it that direction. However running CW this is actually quite a high speed sequence in rotax/shifter which is what makes it violent, and this is my only major concern.
- Agree we will likely be faced with major frost heaves over the first few seasons that will likely require some re-paving. Any track changes prior to this probably doesn't make sense.

You will never convince me that tight is more challenging than fast (bug Joey about how he can't keep his foot in it through the fast corners), but I would be interested to take someone's 4 stroke for a spin to see if it changes my opinion on this sequence. Also call me crazy, but I don't see the appeal of having a track be overly difficult. I like to think Im ok at this, so I don't think it hurts me personally if a track is highly technical, but I'm not a big fan of just doing laps, so as far as im concerned I would way rather a track where everyone can get up to speed and it promotes good racing/passing than something that is "hard" (although i suppose if I was a test and tune warrior I would feel 180 degrees different about this). Anyway that's more a philosophical discussion and personal preference anyway and I respect that I am just one guy and the club will have a variety of views.

As I mentioned before, the only thing that I have an actual issue with is what a violent ride it is in the CW direction. Perhaps we could look at doing something small (with curbs or a small patch etc) to help things a little CCW while preserving the corner as is going CW? I'd probably have to drive it again thinking about this specifically though to have a suggestion.

[Nathan B]

Obviously there are going to be different opinions on this set of corners. Is this the type of thing that can be put to a motion in the next club meeting? See how the majority feel?

[Fred]

I spoke about this to many of the racers helping out at the WOW booth this past weekend. Discussion was pretty split between Rotax and 4 stroke guys but in general the small sample I spoke to said they didn't see the need to change it and if there was most agreed it should be in the year 4/5 time line and they would rather the money be saved for washrooms or pit improvements or any more potential repairs that might become apparent. I personally think if this part of the track were to be redesigned a complete rethink cutting into the large area before it should be looked at and not just this quick (cheap)option

[sanguinetti]

Just thought I'd weigh in on this discussion. Just my 2 cents but for what it's worth I'm in favor changing this corner. Sounds like it will increase the average speed and we can hopefully drop a few teeth and possibly get back on the 12t. I could be wrong about the gear but either way it will be quicker and I prefer that.
I don't think it will have any affect on the close racing we all love. Sounds like some people think this corner makes the track more technical. If I'm being honest I have to agree with that. I'm relatively new to karting and although I improved and learned a lot last year, this section is without question where I struggled and quite frankly suck. That's not why I'm saying I'm for the change, it's not like with this corner gone I'm gonna be magically quicker than guys in front of me. Just being honest and agreeing with some who say that this section is a bit more challenging(at least for some guys). That being said I did try absolutely everything to improve my time through there and I eventually settled on clobbering the curb as the quickest way through it.
I guess at the end of the day it's a bit of give and take, we lose a bit of 'technical' (IMO) and pick up some speed as well as save some chassis wear. My 2 cents...

[red5]

I am in enthusiastic agreement with what the majority have had to say with regards the track modifications proposed by Nathan and Jake. As it currently stands this section is too slow, too mickey mouse and disrupts the flow of what is otherwise a very nicely flowing track.

Most importantly though, there seems to be a consensus that the fastest route through this section, particularly in the clockwise direction, is to launch your Kart over at least one of those quite vicious kerbs, and I for one believe launching karts violently over kerbs is neither "technical", big, nor particularly clever. Not when doing so is a potential rib buster, kart buster and ultimately therefore, wallet buster.

I have yet to hear anyone speak enthusiastically about this section, neither in person, nor on this thread. Indeed the most anyone seems to be able to say about it is that it's marginally less offensive than a PortaPotty........

I'd like to 2nd, 3rd, 5th or 20th Nathan and Jake's proposal, and sooner rather than later. I suggest putting it to a vote.