Shifter Engine Classification

[Nathan B]

Splitting the class is definitely not an option, at least until there is enough participation to warrant two seperate grids. On the points system, maybe points could be tracked separately from the Moto Guys to the ICC guys. But so far the last couple grids have been awesome, and there have been Moto guys dicing with the ICC's just fine.

I just want to make sure we have a grid that encourages all shifters to get out and race, dont want to see any moto guys discouraged because they feel it wont be competitive.

The key difference between now and when I made the switch to ICC is you will have a group of motos to run with. I bought a moto 3 years ago along with 3 other guys on the premise we would all race. And for the first half of this season none of the moto's showed up except for me. So I was the only guy running that engine, was frustrated, and made the switch. If all you moto guys come out of the woodwork and actually race, there will be plenty of good competitive action for you and no need to split the classes.


I Think there is also a big myth out there that needs to be addressed that the Moto Package is significantly cheaper than the ICC, which just isn't the case, I have run both and know exactly what it cost. A used package for each engine will typically run you the same $2-4000 and running the ICC at a club level, it seems you can run about the same maintenance interval for both engine types, with ICC parts costing a bit more. So lets say maintenance and fuel for a Moto is $1000 for a season, well the ICC will probably be $1200. Not exactly a huge swing in a yearly karting budget.

If you want to talk new, just look around, a nice sweedetech moto package will cost you $6000, same deal for a TM or IAME ICC.

Just don't think that you can get a tired old package for a couple grand a come into this class and win races, that doesn't happen in any class, and it won't ever happen in this one either. But you can get that package, get out there, and have a great racing experience, that's what we need to promote.

[Team 75]

When the season started I planned to up the game by buying a TM10 but was told not to and stay with the 9. The reasoning was that everyone would have to start spending a pile of money to keep up.
I agreed and then all of a sudden there was a bunch of money being thrown at this class to beat Skylar. This was supposed to be a fun class with basically older equipment having fun.We now have created a class that is too expensive for the recreational karter to compete.

Wendell

[phil]

I think the brutal reality with shifter is there never will be a completely equal field, unless everyone moved to DD2, and even then there will be those who have the best of everything, and those who don't. I am pretty sure the majority in the class are just there for fun and experience, and don't really care about the podium. I believe if the class can grow enough there will be somebody for everyone to race with, whether they are at front, the middle or the back. Alan had a great time racing his old beast with a DD2 on Saturday, and with Nils on Sunday. I don't think any amount of lead will really balance the field, as there is also huge variance in driver size, weight, and experience level. I guess you could do the old " add 10 lbs for every win" deal and eventually we would see some new faces on the podium. I do know we had the fastest 99 Renspeed on the grid!!

[Team 75]

By having an open class with no rules we are opening it up to another type of modified class . We have had that experience in Edmonton with the four stroke class. The modifieds are almost dead being replaced by the Briggs.The Briggs class is booming across Canada because it takes the money out of it. We do not want to see the shifter die again because of cost

[Nathan B]

Wendell,

Talk to Skylar and look at the video I posted of the race, when I get behind Jake I barely pull a half kart length down the straight with a better exit than him, with Skylar it is 3-4 lengths. Both of you are running the same K9b. So you may find that a little refresh on that motor is all you need to get back what your missing.

Secondly, looking at the grid this season and my times relative to the field, I do think my motor is obviously strong. I am talking to Joey about this and we will maybe run it rich or find a nice way to bring it down a couple HP.

[Team 75]

Nathan
Your horsepower advantage is huge. Everyone else is fairly close and the racing for second is fabulous. You are backing off so it doesn't look so bad.

[Nathan B]

Wendell,

What are you thinking for HP on these? Same displacement, same RPM, Same Carb, Same fuel... What do you think the step up was from the K9 to the K10?

Also, there are other karts on the grid with new brand IAME ICC engines that compete against my K10 in the exact same engine class. Do you assume I have a big HP advantage over them as well?

[Team 75]

Nathan
Justin's motor has as much horsepower as yours but he is still learning how to use it.
There is a great difference in horsepower with these motors. It is all about how much you want to spend. Your motor and ours are approx 8 horsepower out of the box but that can be worked on. I can buy a big bore kit for mine that takes the cc to 143. Without tech nobody would know. If we start the money game where will it end . I do not know the answer other than going to a stock moto with tech

[Nathan B]

This is all I could find, Dyno of a K9C vs K10 showing the same peak horsepower, but the K10 having it come on 500 rpm later making for a longer power band.


http://www.kartcafe.it/showthread.php?t=32878

Once me an Joey get some ideas on cutting my power a bit I will pass them along.

[Mark]

There are a number of different issues at hand here and I think they are being all mixed into a heap of emotions. I'll take a stab at breaking them down...

1) What is the most performance-oriented motor ?
2) What is the best 'bang for buck' option (not the fastest, but a balance of performance and purchase and operating cost) ?
3) What is the motor that is most likely to grow the class ?

My thoughts on these are:

1) ICC
2) Moto
3) Depends on your perspective of what the shifter class is all about.

For some, shifter is the ultimate; the fastest most brutal class there is. For others, its a Rotax with gears. What gets people into shifter ? Why do they not stay ? Probably the same thing -it's brutally demanding in terms of it's physical demands and is more expensive than other classes to get into and operate. Most of us are not 20 yr old triatheletes so the physical demands of 52 second laps are not to be ignored. Could we all be happy running 55's ? Would that be killer enough but not so much as to have people leave because it's too demanding ?

I don't have the answers but I do suspect that people get into shifter and then discover that they can't handle the machine the way they thought they could. Frankly, I think the cost is a secondary consideration.

So how to grow the class ? Personally, I think we need to find the sweet spot in terms of what 'most' shifter candidates can physically handle and a cost point that 'most' people (and this will vary between those who are new to the sport and those that are coming from other classes) are willing to spend. With that in mind, I think ICC's are more demanding than most can stomach.

Is moto the answer ? Maybe. Maybe not.

Question is: do we want the most performance for our own interests or the best balance to grow the class ? These are probably mutually exclusive !

All in all, this year has seen the best shifter class I can recall in 17 years and we should take something from that. Can we improve/build on that ? Pretty sure we can. Probably the best thing we can do is to try and provide some direction for those looking to jump in and that's going to require removing some of the uncertainty we have now.