CKRC Forums

I think there are some really good points raised here by both sides and all points do have merit. My vote is as follows:

1 D
2 B
3 B

I am not opposed to these modifications, however, when it comes down to it, I would rather see the track stay as is with the exception of installing the transitions from the original plan (if they are safe and possible within the terrain). This would give many more variations to the track. As for hitting the curb, what they did in Chilliwack last year was put cones up on corner 2A and the first person to hop the curb and hit the cones received a 3 second penalty but after that, the route was open (i.e. no further penalties were issued). I believe that there were only 2 penalties issued all weekend. Just one idea that may or may not work here.

I agree with Paul, we have only had 1 year on this track configuration and I do believe there is quite a bit of speed to find by everyone. I believe that the track is producing better drivers already and will continue to do so.

With respect to funding any track changes and the scheduling of those changes - I believe we should wait until we are re-paving the track. We know it will happen within the next 5 years (hopefully later rather than sooner). I know we had some track repairs last year that some of the remedies included repaving and other solutions involving mobilizing crews and equipment. I would rather see some projects bumped to start a repair/re-paving fund rather than scrambling to generate the funds necessary. Who knows, we may be faced with a huge repair cost with a track closure this season due to damage (hopefully not but based on last year, it is possible).

The track is in place and completely usable, but I think, other than patching, we should be focusing on the main missing pieces of our infrastructure. In the future I think this corner should be modified, but I don't think it should be our first/main priority. After another year of racing we might have a list of other changes worth contemplating.
My thinking is that this mod should be done with all the other cut-outs.
The last 2 years have all been about the track, now we need to focus on the surrounding area.

Q1 - D - neither and do any repaving/cut-out additions/modifications at 1 time.
Q2 - B - wait
Q3 - B - after other projects

Hi All,


I spoke with John yesterday and proposed organizing a "track committee". The basic idea would be as follows:

-I would introduce the idea of a committee focused on all of the things related to the actual racing surface at an upcoming club meeting. (At some meeting after we have finished spring clean-up and other projects required to get us ready for the 2016 season which is the Number 1 priority)
-The focus would be to get feedback from club members on the following items: Curbing changes, bumps/potential re-paving, track connectors, future loops, small alterations like proposed in this thread, and also any safety concerns (ie do we need to move or install any tire walls)
-The intent would be to gather info from the full demographic of our club throughout the season (racers, T&Ter's, 4 stroke, 2 stroke, shifter, veterans, rookies etc). This could include surveys, plus I would also make an effort to talk to as many people as possible, and make sure all opinions are represented
-Throughout the season ideas would be presented to the club either at meetings or through the website so people could think about any proposed changes while they are out actually driving ("wow, we really do need to extend the curb in this corner"). I think this is an important part of this. We can all close our eyes and visualize, but it helps to think about while on track if we want to make sure we are really doing the right things!
-Out of this we could start to form a "master plan" or "wishlist" for the future. The idea would be to keep this off the plate of the executive until we are sufficiently organized, feel we have represented the entire membership, and are ready to make suggestions
-I am happy to organize and oversee this undertaking in the short term, and think with 20 years karting at well over 20 facilities I have some experience to contribute here. Also, for what its worth, I am not particularly worked up about this either way, just excited about all the possibilities we have with our great new facility (my long term dream is a connector from T13 to T5, so that one day we can have balls out tri-oval races around the outside ) but I promise I have no agenda in this.


Although I am definitely in the camp that thinks the corner in question could be improved, my overall opinion is that we have a great facility right now that provided us a great season of racing in 2015, so I don't feel a huge sense of urgency here. Having now read 5 pages of forum topics on this it is clear we have lots of different views and would be well served to organize them, to make sure any potential changes are the best one's possible.

Feel free to keep providing comments on Nathan's survey and it can be used if this committee gets off the ground. I also encourage everyone to keep a positive attitude as this is about continually improving on what is already clearly a great facility, not about fixing problems. Finally, think about this stuff next time your at the track. If you notice a curb that's too short, or think there is a particular bump that needs fixing, this committee could serve as a place to collect all of those comments without putting any more work on our overburdened exec.

If people are receptive to the idea of a track committee, I will work towards putting it together. However, I don't have any really interest in squabbling about politics here, so if people think it would cause more trouble then help, Ill gladly back away

1 a
2 b
3 b

Great post by Jake. I agree that his proposed approach is the best way to proceed.

Survey 1
C - Both hairpin modification and other connectors.

While mobilization costs are relatively minor, paving all the connectors and the hairpin modification together will minimize total cost and downtime.

Survey 2
B - Schedule work for the end of the season.

I would be in favour of closing the track for one or two weeks (worst case) to pave, but I doubt the hairpin modification and all connectors fit within our current budget without cutting several other improvements that have already been planned.

Survey 3
B - Modify track after other projects have been finished.

Here's my ranking of the projects:
1) Stormwater pond (mandatory)
2) Seacan improvements (mandatory)
3) Curb improvements for corners not expected to change with future paving.
4) Pit runner expansion
5) BBQ shack
6) Track pavement modifications
7) Marshall Lighting System - It's not clear to me whether this is a need or a want. If we are struggling to find enough volunteer marshals and the lighting system will be a supplement to fill that shortfall, then great. If that's not the case, then I would rather prioritize track modifications over lighting.
8) Bathrooms - I don't personally desire this, but I can understand why others do.


Overall, I'm strongly in favour of changing the hairpin sooner rather than later (months not years) and would prioritize it over some, but not all, other projects.

1-D - ( but if it gets built , id say do both )
2-B
3-B

Lets concentrate on work needed to bring the ckrc up to "par". i guess you can say. I remember hearing about track mods that where suppose to give track diff layouts during design ,so i think those are still an idea. but anyhoo. all great ideas thou.

Just for reference, here is the track drawing with the original joiners that were planned.

EDIT: I had only got to page 2 when I replied to this post - so it is placed a little out of the proper sequence. I had not read Jake's excellent post and offer when I wrote this ...My Bad - Tony End of Edit.

Sorry for the huge post but…

I have a number of issues with this survey:
First off I want to say that I am in principle in favour of the addition of an alternate route at this corner so that on a given day we may use EITHER the current layout with the curbs in place OR choose to bypass the turns and curbs under discussion.
I hold this view because a significant number of club members want the option – but I do not think that they have in any way justified the need yet. Nor do I think that a survey in this kind of format is beneficial to the club – there is a very limited et of possible answers that does not represent most of the possible options.
Having said that: How big a priority this is to me as an individual depends not on opinions but on data – and we have none.
• I look at the photo on the club page and compare the amount of paving needed to the size of the timing tower sea can 40 x 8ft , that’s 29.7m2. About 3 of these fill up the area of the patch – maybe a little more if you have to allow a little space around the existing curb that’s much closer to 100 sq m. Nathan has estimated this (elsewhere in emails at 30 to 50 sq m) GV paving a Strathmore area company quoted us $99.55 this time last year to do paving so that might well meet a $15,000 estimate – but I am concerned about the apparent discrepancies in estimates of areas. Perhaps we should take the time to better define (and stake out the addition) before taking any surveys.
• The original estimate of 1 day for construction was for that 30 to 50 sq m patch, this is likely to take at least twice as long. If weather issues affect scheduling it may well take much longer – hopefully with a dry spring expected after an El Nino this might not be a problem
• We already have a very significant list of things to get done in the Spring before we (and paying renters) want access to the track. Not as much as last year to be sure but the season starts aa month earlier.
• Equipment must get to the site of the modification – either over the track and the skid steer type of equipment Nathan proposes has already chewed up asphalt paving in the paddock area. We have mostly managed to keep it off the track so far for that reason
If we move it over a possibly somewhat greasy run-off area at the start of the year then volunteers (and I am sure we will find lots of them amongst those who want this upgrade) – will have to fix the damage – and the club will have to restart the grass growing process.
• Timelines – if we rush the process and do not take adequate time to pack the base the new section will heave over the first winter and become significantly bumpy for 2017. Plus doing this work very early in the season before the ground may be suitably dry can make it harder to pack. We have all seen patches on the roads sink shortly after they are filled (admittedly these are generally deeper trenches – but you get the point)
• Bumps and settling – A rule of thumb is that 80% of the remaining settlement happens each year – So 80 % of the bumps appear over the first winter, 96% have appeared after the second winter, 99.2% the third, 99.8% the fourth. So if we want to create this section we would at least want to pack the base of this section in 2017, To get as many winters settlement in as possible before repaving of the track occurs.
Now do we want to create a new section of track at all – I say yes because apparently many members want to see it (although John K has made a good point that we are still learning to drive the track and therefore our opinions of a technical section may change). But no one has shown any data to back up their claims. What happened to all those Mychron 5 GPS dataloggers with video overlays – now is the time to break them out and justify any requested changes. Changes should by hard data and not opinions. for example:

• Two fast drivers in the shifter class say completely contradictory things – Nathan says the fastest line is to attack the curb and gradually damage the axle/frame of the kart - John says the fastest line is to not attack the curb so violently as to upset the kart or cause any damage to it – Video and data-logging proof please. Without any wild claims of tenths faster. The video also shows that this is about the only area of the track where the shifters touch the curb – personally think a track should include a little curb action – but as I said above if members want this option we should entertain it.
• Clearly Rotax drivers do not like to use the 11 tooth front bearing account it wears out (about 3 needed per year according to Mario) and requires more maintenance than the good all year 12 tooth needle bearing sprocket. In the lighter Rotax senior class a 12 tooth gear can maybe be used without the rear sprocket and chain touching the ground. The heavier Rotax Masters class needs a 12 x 89 ratio (per Mario G) and because the track is so bumpy this can break chains thereby wrecking someone’s event. (When the track is repaved this gear combination will be useable – up to a 93 sprocket is available for a smooth track) Alternatively a sprocket protector can be used with the 12 89 combination. If the proposed option will make the 12 tooth gear a more viable option without just adding a sprocket protector (which has its own drawbacks) then it is has obvious advantages to the membership
We need data and analysis that shows the alternate route proposed would allow Rotax to use that 12 tooth gear any way. If the 11 tooth front sprocket is still needed to get around the other slow parts of the track then there is no functional advantage to the change. We would want similar data and analysis for the junior classes too if they have similar issues with the front sprocket
• And we need data and analysis for both track directions – the majority of the complaints / benefits appear to be in the CW direction that we will probably be running only 3 times this year. So there might only be a benefit to a proportion of the club for a small proportion of the races.
All the facility upgrades already mentioned in the first post regarding this on the forum and survey and all the other ones that have not been identified here come from the same pot of money and need to be compared and prioritized in a rational manner. It is very hard to do that without the proper background information which is also hard to be presented in a forum / survey environment, particularly oas unstructured as this. Which is why we agreed at the March club meeting to have an April meeting to discuss these points.

It is completely impossible to prioritize things when the survey does not even include all the items on the wish list and with a reasonable estimate of their costs.

Again – I personally support the proposed addition to the track as long as the current layout is also left in play. But they must be considered with other additions to the track surface such as one track short cut of approximately 130 sq meters that works for KID KART, CW restart option and possibly TAK – and other track options. PLUS all the various upgrades to the facility not even mentioned here

Ideally, I would like to see the base work for all the track options selected placed in 2017 so that they have a chance to settle over a few winters before we repave the entire facility to the same standards we had at the Varsity Track in Calgary

Just for info, Alan ran consistent 55.4 lap times at masters weight with a 12/82 gear set.

1 C
2 A
3 B

I can't really add anything to what has been said. Thanks to Nathan and Jake for their leadership.